Jillian Johnson is the Mayor Pro Tempore of the City of Durham, and a long-time community organizer and activist. She was first elected to the Durham City Council in 2015 on a platform of racial, economic, and environmental justice, police accountability, equitable development, broadening democracy, and centering the voices of those who are most impacted by the issues facing Durham.
In this episode, we talk about the role of local politics in the fight against the climate crisis. How do we navigate policy barriers, community engagement, and connecting climate policy to people?
Check out the Durham Sustainability Dashboard here: https://durhamnc.gov/3852/Sustainability-Dashboard
GUEST: Jillian Johnson
HOSTS: Rishab Jagetia, Ryan Lou
PRODUCERS: Rishab Jagetia, Ryan Lou, Valerie Tsao, Clare Sparling, Katherine Li
AUDIO EDITOR: Katherine Li
MUSIC: Cali by Wataboi, u said it by Wataboi
TRANSCRIPT:
KATHERINE:
Hey, welcome to Operation Climate, a podcast made by young people for young people, where we break down environmental issues through conversations with cool people.
RISHAB:
Everyone, this is Rishab joined by Ryan from Operation Climate. We're going to talk about the issue that you think we're going to talk about, which is climate change. If you listened to our past episode, you learned about Duke University and specifically the technical side of how they're becoming carbon neutral. But as you and I both know, climate change requires working on different sides of the problem. In the same vein, Durham has a whole team dedicated to this problem of how can we reduce emissions.
RYAN:
Now, when we were preparing for this episode, we spoke to Paul Cameron, an energy and sustainability analyst with the city of Durham, who mentioned how installing LEDs, weatherizing buildings, reducing transportation emissions, and increasing renewable energy installations have all helped Durham on its path to carbon neutrality. For example, the city plans to be carbon neutral by 2040, and use 100% renewable energy by 2050. However, one of the problems Paul noted is that it only applies to what occurs within the city. Obviously, climate action requires moves that affect all people, something that technicals can never fully address.
RISHAB:
In this episode, we're going to address the other side of the problem. That is local politics, especially around the question of how is Durham trying to engage with carbon neutrality as it navigates policy barriers, community engagement, and connecting climate policy to people policy. Talking to us today is Julian Johnson, the mayor Pro Tem of Durham, we hope that you guys enjoyed this episode as much as we did.
So Jillian, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
JILLIAN:
Hi, I'm so I've been a city council member for about six years now. I originally got elected in 2015. And was chosen to be mayor Pro Tem in 2017. So I've been doing that role for about four years. So I've been working in organizing in Durham since 1999. I've made sustainability one of my one of my goals on city council, trying to move the city toward more sustainability and making sure that we are part of the solution in the fight against climate change, and have been really glad to see some really exciting efforts come on line over my tenure and hope that that'll that'll continue.
RISHAB:
Awesome. Yeah, that's a great introduction. So I guess I really wanted to know first: You mentioned that you're an organizer and in the past and you still probably do some organizing work. So over this time, like I bet Durham's changed a lot, what have you noticed about the types of efforts that have been going on and how they relate to climate justice and climate change? Have you realized that maybe climate to becoming a greater part of the conversation?
JILLIAN:
Over the 22 years that I've lived in Durham, the city has changed a lot. And there's been a lot more development, especially around downtown, but we're also doing a lot of development further out into the suburbs. And that is creating a lot of conflict both within the community and I would say internally for council members around our shared goals, because we are in a housing crisis right now in Durham. It is extremely difficult for people to find affordable housing in this community. And we know that we need to build more housing, especially affordable housing, to solve that problem.
On the other hand, we're concerned about low density developments out in the suburbs, because they're car dependent. And we don't know that we're going to be able to run effective transit out to those areas. I think it's possible. I've seen effective low density transit in other countries, not in the US. But I think that it's something that can be done. We've got to figure that out. Well, we'll make sure that people have a place to live now, but then we've got to figure out how we get transit out there and how we make sure that those neighborhoods don't have to be car dependent. That's the main conflict around sustainability that's coming up right now around development and how Durham is changing.
RYAN:
Touching on what Jillian just said, the issue of affordable housing is actually closely related to the climate through the phenomenon of urban sprawl, where there's a rapid increase in suburban houses, private cars, and space use for housing, all of which cause an increase in emissions from building and driving. Though such an effort accommodates an ever growing population with affordable housing options. It also increases energy use, pollution and habitat degradation. What are your thoughts?
RISHAB:
The central issue that Julian touches on is this issue of now versus the future. Issues like affordable housing deal with what people need right now. But we also have to talk about climate, which is an issue that's going to affect us in the future. So it's really hard to balance those two.
JILLIAN:
There's also, you know, we have the sustainability roadmap, just this 60 something page document that kind of lays out the city's plans for sustainability over the next several years. And we also adopted a resolution, I think, two ish years ago, that calls for us to be using 80%, renewable energy by 2030, and 100% by 2050. So we have these really ambitious goals.
One of the things that we tried to make clear when we were adopting those goals was that the energies piece especially depends a lot on our energy provider, Duke, there's not a lot that we can shift, unless the source of our energy also shifts. And so we're in ongoing conversations with Duke Energy about wanting to move towards more renewables. And being able, you know, how much what we do is dependent on what Duke does. We can do some things, we can put solar panels on our buildings, you know, there are solar panels on our new fire station; we can buy electric buses, we just bought a bunch of electric buses. Unfortunately, you know, if it's coal fired electrical -- if it's a coal fired power plant providing electricity, then that's still not particularly good. But yeah, well, what we can do, what we can do is really limited. And so that's another big piece of conflict is that we really want to move in this direction, but there are outside parties that really limit how much we can do and how much we can move.
RISHAB:
Wow, there's a lot to unpack there. I guess my first reaction would be like, yes, it seems so hard to balance, the public interest, first of sustainability, but also housing, with, with everything that's going on around private development with private companies and Duke Energy, it just seems like you guys are trying to strike a balance that is impossible to me to think about.
JILLIAN:
Probably is impossible, you know, you just do the best you can and hope that it's okay.
RISHAB:
Yeah. But I guess my next question would be... Because it's so hard to have leverage in this private space. Are there any things besides energy and transportation that you're very limited by, because of all the other actors that are in the space?
JILLIAN:
There is a lot of state preemption in North Carolina, we are very limited by state laws regulating development.
RYAN:
For listeners who are unfamiliar with the term state preemption, it's essentially when state law nullifies or tells a municipal authority that they can't do something.
JILLIAN:
So for example, we have a lot of residents concerned about people clear cutting trees for new developments. We are not in any way allowed to regulate timbering, so anyone can timber their property anytime. There's a state law in place that does not allow municipalities to prevent that from happening. You can cut down the trees on your property.
There’s currently pending a state law that would invalidate our tree ordinance. So we have a tree preservation ordinance that requires developers to preserve 20% tree save for a development over a certain size. And there's legislation pending in the General Assembly that would preempt that. So yeah, we're you know, North Carolina is one of the worst states for state preemption. We have a very aggressive legislature that, you know, believes that the state should have more rights than the federal government, but also that local governments should have no rights. And so kind of that, basically, they believe that they should be the most powerful government entity, which, you know, that works for them, but doesn't really work for us in a lot of ways. And so we are, we're always kind of juggling those, those state regulations with what we really want to do.
And any of those kinds of regulations also increase the price of housing, you know, it keeps coming back to that housing crisis issue where, you know, we might, we might, and we did recently pass a new tree ordinance that requires developers to plant street trees. Well, that's going to increase the cost of housing. And it's possible that it will increase the cost of housing more than we anticipated, because of things around access to the amount of access to the right of way that you need to put the tree and then that limits the amount, you know, the space that you could have for houses. It feels like we're juggling, we're juggling lots of different values and lots of different interests and trying to figure out what's the best possible, what's the best possible outcome knowing that it's not going to be perfect, it might not even be great, but it'll be better than what we have. And that's where we have to move.
RISHAB:
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. So I definitely want to move to a more positive note, we've talked a lot about, like, what we can't do or what Durham can't do. But I also want to know what Durham can do and what Durham plans to do. So you mentioned the Climate Action Plan that Durham has, and also the sustainability roadmap, a lot of that tackles internal operations within the city. But I wanted to know how Durham is trying to address the problem of climate change and climate action on a broader level with the community. So how are you guys gauging community input? And what partnerships do you envision with the community to make this a reality?
JILLIAN:
That's a great question. And there is a lot that we can do, you know, all of our internal operations pieces, I think, are really important, because the city itself uses a lot of energy. But even more so I think the fight against climate change has to start locally, because that's where people, that's where you reach people, that's where people are, that's where people are paying attention to.
A national government can impose restrictions on, you know, say, large corporations and the agriculture industry and you know, these large polluters that we know are responsible for a lot of what we're seeing. But on the local level, we can do a lot to reach out to our residents, our local businesses, local employers, and really, you know, try to build a civic environment around energy conservation that can really make a difference.
We have a city office called Keep Durham Beautiful that does community events, like creek cleanups, and we had some folks come in and do a workshop on pollinators trying to, you know, encourage people to build little pollinator habitats and save the bees. We do a big water conservation event every year where we have kids in our schools make posters about why we should conserve water. You know, we do a lot of water conservation education and Durhamites are the best in the state at water conservation, we use less water per capita than any other county, which is fabulous. We want the city to set the example for the rest of the community and do as much community education as we can. And we're trying to get people to plant more trees, we just passed some new rules about tree planting and replacing trees that get cut down. We have a Golden LEAF awards program for some resident who has maintained an old and awesome tree on their property. And so those are some of the things that the city is doing right now.
RISHAB:
Julian points out how climate action not only requires city fixes, but also civic engagement, or encouraging sustainable habits in schools for kids to incentivizing tree conservation, it's clear that the city is trying to involve the public in their transition.
RYAN:
Of course, all these actions are just small drops in a bucket towards a carbon free future. But they are so important to cultivating a culture of sustainability, that can power Durham's transition through public support, and public awareness. Julian was awesome at breaking down the complex issues that cities deal with when approaching climate action on a local level. However, we wanted to leave you guys with not just information, but also initiatives that you guys can take on yourselves.
RISHAB:
I think for any listener, recycling is great, but it's not going to do what we need. And we really need to build institutions as people that challenge the bigger institutions that exist and also realize that a lot of this has to come from top down ordinances and mandates and leadership that prioritizes climate change. But also I realized that like young people and people in general, we do have a role in this movement. I'm a Duke student. A lot of the people who listen to this podcast are Duke students. What do you think that we should take away as actions that we should do to get involved in local politics and local government to make a change, that's not so much as a an action for Instagram, but something that actually contributes to change and contributes to better systems?
JILLIAN:
For folks who are just now starting out on their careers, I think you have a lot of opportunity to make your career matter, right, like make the work that you're doing matter and put your values into action. And those of us who are older also have the opportunity to do that. But I think it's better if you start out, you know, like some people will be like, “Oh, I'm just gonna work for this evil corporate law firm for a few years and then I'll go do public interest law”. But once you start working for the evil corporate law firm, it's hard to get out of that. Starting off your career with work that aligns with your values and with work that feels like it's going to move the world in the right direction I think is really really important for young folks just like coming out of school and, you know, getting jobs.
And so there are a lot of ways for people to contribute through their work both directly, right. And also, if you work for a large company, there are ways to build a climate ethic into that work. And there are, you know, lots of companies that will have, like sustainability teams that you can join that will help, you know, help figure out how to make the campus operate more sustainably.
We need a lot more people to think about, I think, to think about how we build sustainable affordable housing. And I've been thinking a lot about the current methods that we use to build housing, can we build things in different ways, you know, this sort of like cutting down trees to build the house, it's not the only way to build a house, you know, there, there are other ways that we can do things. And I think that younger generations are just much more interested in looking at things in different ways and thinking about how to do things differently. And like you said, you know, recycling is great, but it doesn't do everything. I feel like this, you know, the same thing about things like planting trees, like how many trees do we need to plan to actually make a difference, right, but again, collective action problem-- Maybe if all of us decided we're going to plant five trees, maybe we could actually make a dent in the problem.
And so being organizers of community impact efforts... Taking your own individual actions is great, but you also need to be organizing and you also need to be taking your vision and your values to wherever you are, to your company, to your political organization, to your religious organizations to try to magnify that impact.
RYAN:
Our conversation with Jillian shows how implementing climate action requires creative thinkers, persistent advocacy, and behind the scenes fixes. It was amazing to hear how many factors come into play when cities are planning climate transitions, from planting trees to encouraging water conservation, from revolutionising transportation, to working with so many engineers, policymakers, and citizens who all have different interests.
RISHAB:
If you want to learn more about Durham sustainability efforts, we encourage you to visit the sustainability dashboard from the city of Durham's website, we will link in the episode description. And finally, before we go, we want to touch on one more subject. If you were listening closely, you might have heard the words Duke Energy. Turns out, they are absolutely crucial to a climate transition. And their story is a much more complicated one than Durham's. In a future episode, we'll learn about Duke Energy and what it's doing to help and hurt the fight against climate change in and around Durham. Thanks for joining us.
KATHERINE:
Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of operation climate. Make sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts and anywhere else that you find your podcasts. In order to stay updated about future episodes. Visit our website at bit.ly/operationclimatepodcast for a full transcript of this episode and for more information and links that you can explore to learn more about this topic that we covered today. Follow us on our socials, we are @operationclimate on Instagram. And lastly, we want to hear from you. So write a review on Apple podcasts, that would help us so much, and send us your feedback and your messages through our website, email us, you can dm us on Instagram, you can fill out our feedback form which is on our website. And if you're a student listening to this podcast, head to our website to fill out our students stories form to get the chance to have your story and voice featured on a future episode of Operation Climate. Thanks so much and we hope you join us next time. See ya.
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