Dr. Eric Mlyn is a Lecturer in the Sanford School of Public Policy and Distinguished Faculty Fellow in the Kenan Institute for Ethics. He is also the director of the Civic Engagement and Social Change Certificate at Duke University. His current research focuses on Social Entrepreneurship and Social Innovation, and seeing how the influence of business practices in the NGO space affects efforts for driving social change.
In this episode, we talk to Professor Mlyn about the benefits, drawbacks, and potential for social media in activism. Especially during a pandemic, in which in-person protests or organizing poses safety concerns, it is important to know how activism can utilize social media without losing its commitment and dedication to a cause. Mlyn also touches on how the climate movement can learn from the pandemic and how it can possibly move forward in the years to come.
Guest:
Dr. Eric Mlyn
Writers:
Natasha Von Seelen ‘21, Rishab Jagetia ‘24
Host:
Rishab Jagetia ‘24
Audio Engineer:
Emily Nagamato ‘24
Music:
reCreation by airtone
Inspired by Kevin MacLeod
License: creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Inspired to do more? If you want to learn how your time and skills can best help the climate, you can create a climate action plan at youchangeearth.org/operationclimate.
Transcript:
Rishab: With COVID-19 making face-to-face interactions more difficult, many of the things we took for granted--jobs, meeting friends, and even doctor’s appointments--have moved online. This online transition has rapidly increased the importance of social media in activism, which has many potential benefits and drawbacks. Here to talk about social media activism and what it could mean for the climate movement going forward is Professor Eric Mlyn, the Director of the “Civic Engagement and Social Change” certificate at Duke and scholar of democracy and social innovation, among other things.
Rishab Jagetia: Alright. Hey everyone, I'm Rishab with Operation Climate. With me today is Professor Eric Mlyn. So Professor thanks for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: Sure, it's my pleasure to be part of what sounds like a really interesting project. I'm on the faculty of the Sanford School of Public Policy and a fellow at the Kenan Institute for Ethics and teach courses on civic engagement and social change. I'm a political scientist by training and I'm really interested in how citizens organized to influence public policy and, we were fortunate to be in a class together this this fall navigating our way through what was the most interesting and challenging semester I've experienced in my 30 years of teaching, and so I'm glad to be doing this with you as well.
Rishab Jagetia: Of course, we're glad you're here. So, at least when I think about social media and activism in the climate world, I think of Greta Thunberg because, like, if you look at Greta Thunberg, she rose, because of all the social media posts when she had “School Strike for Climate”. And we can see social media a lot in activism, but nowadays, there's been a new term coined called Slacktivism and I was wondering if you could describe in your words what you think Slacktivism is.
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: Yeah, I think the term Slacktivism, which is, you know, a little snarky perhaps refers to the fact that it's almost too easy for young people and not only young people, but for citizens in general to somehow feel like they're doing something by posting something on social media, whether that's...and I'm not on social media regularly. So, a lot of it's things I learned from my own kids and from my students, but that it's too easy to post something on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook, and that one can be a slacker and still feel like they're being an activist. And I think that the limitations of that, are that by not drawing on some sense of personal or professional sacrifice, right, that is “I'm committed to this. I'm willing to sacrifice something for it” ,and that sacrifice might just be time, it might just be traveling to a protest.
Others in the history of social change both in the United States and abroad have sacrificed much more, right, they've sacrificed sometimes their health and safety, sometimes their futures.
You think about dissidents, you think about the Arab Spring, people sacrifice a great deal. And so I think that the fear about Slacktivism is that it makes people feel like they're doing something significant whereas it may not.
Rishab Jagetia: Yeah, it seems almost as if the motivations are so diluted as if like it's too easy to join.
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: Yeah, it's I've always thought of it, you know i think this is a useful way to think about it, which is that the use of social media for organizing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for social change. And what I mean by that is, in today's world, it's hard to imagine organizing a social movement without it even it's widespread use.
But if you stop there, then it becomes really difficult to achieve goals. And so I think we saw that this summer with the Black Lives Matter movement which you and I discussed briefly, which is
even in the midst of a pandemic, it seemed important and necessary for citizens to do more than simply tweet, but also to show up in the streets. Right. And to show up in the streets, at a time when that was dangerous as protests often can be, but also dangerous because of the spread of COVID-19. So I think that's a good example of it, and one that many social movements could learn from.
Rishab Jagetia: Of course. Well, do you think there's any benefits that you've seen from the increased presence of social media in activism? Because for me, I think of the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge. Raising $150 million just because they could drive people to make change on social media and donate money. Can you think of anything off the top of your head where it's been used for a beneficial purpose?
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: Absolutely. I mean, you know, I tend to think of more comparative cases but i one thing that I really always come back to when thinking about social media is the 2011 Egyptian Revolution and the use of Twitter, which became called the Twitter revolution.
And in a society in particular where media is so controlled, which we have less of here in the United States, the use of that kind of platform can be transformative. What's interesting if you look at that, in retrospect, is that that revolution did not hold, right, and so it was not enough. And then the ability for people to organize, to vote, to protest, to write became limited and that revolution collapsed. So I think there were important lessons to be taken from that.
Rishab Jagetia: Yeah, I think one of the most interesting things about Slacktivism is that it takes you so far, but maybe it doesn't take you far enough. So I guess in my own life. It seems like everywhere I see on Instagram or Facebook, I see a black square, at least during the summer.
Or a picture of earth on Earth Day. And people are saying like “support the earth” or in the black square case like “black lives matter”, but that's it. So do you think that these actions that so many people perform, these performative actions, per se. Do they have any instrumental value towards the goals and movements or are they actually harmful, and do they actually prevent the movement from getting what it's supposed to get done?
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: That is the million dollar question. That's what you should write your honors thesis on when you write your honors thesis Rishab. I mean I think that… I don't think that we clearly know the answer but the answer depends on whether it's a substitute for something else or an introduction to something else and empirically, I think it's both, right? I think it's for different kinds of people. It sometimes serves as an introduction, and then people get further involved. And then for others, it's all that people do. I do fear if I really think about it, that if you were to balance those two different ways that it might be treated that the balance may be in giving people a false sense of efficacy. Oh, I've done it. I check it off. And there's nothing left to do. But that we can address, right, that we can say to people: “Okay, look, you've been really active on social media. Now let's you know let's assume that by the summer of this fall. We're at a new stage of the pandemic and we're able to interact. Again, more broadly, let's also use that to march in Washington. Let's also use that to go door to door to convince people of your cause.
Let's also, you know, use that to support certain candidates who we believe in”.
So the potential for it is great. The potential for it to be a useful introduction to social change is great and the potential for it interfering with social change is great as well.
Rishab Jagetia: Wow, that's tough. That's tough.
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: I know it's and I, you know, there's probably good empirical evidence out there that I don't know the details of, that would say it's one or the other. But there is a term that a political scientist coined, Eiton Hirsch at Tufts University, and the term he uses is “political hobbyism” and he's very critical of people for who politics has become a hobby, rather than something that they deeply engage in, and so I think we should take his observations and advice and move away from it being a hobby and more toward almost, you know, something closer to a vocation.
But I think the question we can all ask ourselves is, what are we sacrificing to do it? What does it cost us to do it? And again, I'm not talking about putting your life on the line, but a Saturday is a cost, right, or you know, a Saturday doing that, rather than sleeping late or something with the those costs that we incur are a good gauge of, I think, whether or not these these kinds of things can be effective.
Rishab Jagetia: Of course, so of course this is a climate podcast. So as for the climate movement. I feel like we've mentioned this before, but there's a lot to learn from the Black Lives Matter movement, especially this summer its successes and failures, so the climate crisis is not going away. It's definitely getting worse and we need to do collective action. We need to address this problem. What do you think that the climate movement can learn from the successes and failures of the Black Lives Matter movement and how do you think it should organize itself to move forward, especially during a pandemic, especially at a time where large gatherings are not going to be happening, and how should we channel social media to achieve all these problems?
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: I think one of the most important lessons that the climate movement should learn, and it's not a hopeful one I'm sorry to say, from the last nine months, it has less to do with Black Lives Matter and more to do with COVID-19 which is that what we're facing in this country now is a rise of right wing populism that fundamentally does not believe in science and technocracy, and you and I have discussed this in class and that fundamental challenge for the climate movement is one that's going to have to be addressed head on, because in some way, and we know we've seen data on this, that people's willingness to wear a mask very much dovetails with their belief that human activity is affecting the climate, and so the obstacles are are significant. And I think that what the climate movement needs to do is in some ways what it's done, which is attack this on multiple fronts, you know, as, I think, you know, I believe that, in many ways, I think social change comes when we let 1000 flowers bloom. And which means that university students can lobby their universities to divest from fossil fuels. Citizens can support candidates who support legislation that will directly address the use of fossil fuels, automobile efficiency, and all of the kinds of things that affect climate.
And there's a room for protest too, and you know what, people will be back in the streets and in some ways there may be pent up demand for that. So there's no shortage of things that people can do short of protesting at this moment.
There's also obviously a lot that can be done by corporate America as climate becomes an issue that citizens care about and might make their consumer choices based on, what companies are more sensitive to climate change. So I think there's a whole variety of things that people could do short of protest that can help us, but the obstacles. Let's not underestimate the obstacles, because of the rise of right wing populism in the United States and view of science.
Rishab Jagetia: Not the most optimistic view, but it's definitely something that we need to address head on.
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: Yeah, I do think I agree. And yet I also do think that the recognition... that there is at least a bit of mainstreaming of concern about climate change and that mainstreaming of concern about climate change I think bodes well for the medium term.
Rishab Jagetia: So we're going to ask all our interviewees per se this final question. What does activism mean to you?
Eric Mlyn, Ph.D.: I think activism means making politics and making your attempts to achieve social change a fundamental part of your life, a fundamental part of your life, which means it's not done from the sofa. It's not done from your bed. It's not done from the chair.
And it can be done in a variety of ways, but that in the end, as we emerged from COVID I think activism needs to at some point involve people to people contact, and it could be knocking on a door. It could be attending a protest, it could be asking a candidate a question. It could be all of those kinds of things that have people confronting other people, and I don't mean confronting in a necessarily a conflictual way, so that's what I think it is. And we all struggle to make that happen. But it you know the issue that you are doing this podcast on couldn't be more important and so you know, sometimes it has to stare at you right in the face. And unfortunately, the fires in the western part of the United States this summer, you know, put into stark appearance to us of what the implications of this are once it starts affecting people. I do think the potential is greater for action on this.
Rishab Jagetia: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Professor.
Rishab Jagetia: Professor Mlyn touches on how social media can be a tool of activism, but should not be its primary driver of change. Looking forward to the climate movement, we must realize that instagram pictures are not enough. We must organize, push for policy changes, and make our voices heard. As quoted from Timothy Snyder’s, On Tyranny, “Protest can be organized through social media, but nothing is real that does not end on the streets”.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Operation Climate, and make sure to subscribe to stay updated on future episodes! For more information on who we are, what we’re doing, and a full transcript of this episode, visit our website at bit.ly/operationclimatepodcastr to learn more.
Rishab Jagetia: I’m Rishab, and see ya next time.
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