In the Season 4 finale of Operation Climate, we continue our deep dive into Duke Energy, a company that controls much of the energy that we use at Duke University. How much power does Duke Energy really have? How can we make sure that they commit to a clean energy shift?
Jillian Riley has been an environmental justice activist for over a decade. Some of her activism efforts include leading protests against Duke Energy to get them to clean up their coal ash waste (a case in which she and her fellow activists won!).
Randy Wheeless works in media relations for Duke Energy, one of the largest electric and natural gas companies in the US.
Duke Energy’s Integrated Resource PLan (IRP): https://www.duke-energy.com/Our-Company/About-Us/IRP
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Guest: Jillian Riley and William Powers
Hosts: Rishab Jagetia and Clare Sparling
Producers: Rishab Jagetia, Clare Sparling, Ryan Lou
Audio Editor: Clare Sparling
Music: Cali by Wataboi, what you thinkin by Wataboi
TRANSCRIPT:
KATHERINE:
Hey, welcome to Operation Climate podcast, made by young people for young people, where we break down environmental issues through conversations with cool people.
RISHAB:
Hey everyone, this is Rishab and Clare with Operation climate. To set up this episode, we want to return to one of the main questions posed at the end of the last episode by William powers, an engineer and critic of Duke Energy, if we should switch to renewables, why is Duke resisting change?
CLARE:
But as William notes, why do that if you don't have to? I mean, if you own the politics of a state, why make the effort to diversify when you control the situation? When we talk about Duke Energy, we have to talk about power and what Duke is doing with that power? How does Duke influence policy for the battle and voice? And equally importantly, how can individuals influence the decisions and policies of large corporations like Duke? To discuss this, we have two amazing guests on the episode, one of which may sound pretty familiar. So our first guest is Gillian Riley. She is an environmental and social justice activist from Durham, North Carolina. And as a community organizer, she has worked to hold Duke Energy accountable for their actions. So Jillian, to get us started. Could you just tell us a little bit about yourself?
JILLIAN:
Sure. Yeah. Thanks for having me today. I'm excited to be a part of this podcast. I'm cillian Riley and I do environmental and social justice activism in Durham and around the state. Particularly, my background is in fighting corporate pollution and corporate corporate polluters like Duke Energy.
RISHAB:
We will also be talking to Randy wheeless, representative of Duke Energy, and a guest on our last show. Randy, could you tell us a little bit about yourself?
RANDY:
Yeah, I'm Randy Willis. I'm in our media relations group. I'm a spokesman for Duke Energy, but mainly cover the clean tech issues of solar energy storage, electric vehicles sustainability.
CLARE:
So to set the stage for this episode, I want to foster establish why we're even focusing on the actions of a corporation like Duke Energy. So Julian, could you talk to us a little bit about why corporate action? And why action from energy companies like Duke Energy is so important when addressing the climate crisis? I
JILLIAN:
think the truth is, we are in such a climate crisis, that we need everyone to be involved. I think there's definitely something to be said about reducing an individual's consumption rate. Now, a lot of times they use their car, etc, and things like that. But the reality is, corporations are some of the biggest polluters, worldwide. I mean, we cannot halt or slow down climate change. If it's only an individual action, we need to have corporate action, especially our energy companies. And so yes, of course, individuals, you know, need to play their part. But we need to stop, you know, pointing a finger at each other for things that we're doing, and start pointing a finger at our elected officials and at these companies that are basically paying off our elected officials to be able to continue doing whatever they want to do.
RISHAB:
God, Julian hits on the tension that all environmental advocates face individual action versus larger change. Yeah, lowering your carbon footprint is good and all. But true change comes from large actors like Duke Energy, state and national governments and large institutions that make and stick to their climate commitments. Obviously, Dukes actions carry some good and bad, they're responsible for a lot of damage, but they also hold a lot of the power to make the world better.
CLARE:
After establishing why action from Duke Energy is so important, when dealing with climate change, we wanted to get a better understanding of what role Duke Energy plays in the political arena, and how they can impact the climate crisis, not only with their actions directly, but also in the way they influence the actions of others.
CLARE:
So I know that Duke Energy has a lot of power and influence in North Carolina. Could you talk to our listeners a little bit about how they exercise that power?
JILLIAN:
So when we talk about power, we're talking about massive amounts of political power, social power and money. And that is everything that embodies Duke Energy. So Duke Energy is a monopoly in the state of North Carolina. So they control the entire power grid across the state. And they are one of the number one campaign contributors, political contributors in the state of North Carolina as well, not just to state elected officials, but all the way down to local elected officials, whether that's in rural counties or an urban counties, they give both in grant form. So a lot of times you'll see a park or you'll see a softball team, or soccer league, and it's funded by Duke Energy. So they give money away to communities that they poison, and they give money to political politicians in order to keep control of the energy policies in the state.
RISHAB:
Well, that's a lot of shade to throw out Duke Energy. Julian is right, however, in saying that Duke contributes a lot to political candidates. In fact, from 2019 2020 opensecrets.org, estimates at Duke Energy Pac, or Pac donated over $590,000, to political candidates and campaigns. But before we jump to the conclusion, that Duke is some political machine controlling the gates of North Carolina politics, we need to hear the other side of the equation. For that reason, Claire, and I wanted to hear what Randy from Duke Energy had to say about Dukes role in the political arena. how exactly would you describe Duke energy's relationship with the state legislature, and just how Duke Energy plays a role in the policy process in North Carolina as a whole,
RANDY:
we have to think about Duke energy's been around, you know, more than 100 years. So we have a with we have a long term relationship with regulators, with the legislature with local and elected officials as well. I mean, we're not going anywhere. Yeah, so we know that we need to have long term relationships that lasts. So we'll be honest about where we are, where we need to go and try to work with the legislature to craft policy. You know, in 2017, we had a very strong solar law that was passed in North Carolina, we were involved in that, that that really, you know, about brought about about more than 3000 megawatts of new solar into the state. So but you know, energy policy is kind of an evolving thing, you know, new things come up that, you know, questions that need to be asked weren't even available a few years ago. So we're going to continue to work with the legislature with our local officials, the governor's office, and, and really anyone else who has a stake in energy policy, to make sure that when we're going for our, our powers, cleaner, but also still affordable and reliable.
RISHAB:
So in an ideal world, what is the specific role of Duke Energy and government? Do you think it should be donating to politicians and campaigns, helping draft bills and helping shape regulations?
RANDY:
Yeah, you know, it's funny when you're when you're crafting the energy policy, I think as a legislature, you, you know, a legislature, you would immediately say, Well, let me see what the people who are running the energy landscape, say, and they're going to talk to us, they're going to talk to environmental groups, they're going to talk to other stakeholders, and Bob, so I think, you know, you're just being part of the process. And I think, you know, other parties are part of the process. And we're part of the process to know, in a perfect world, we're not going to be able to write energy policy by ourselves. It's going to be a collective, it's going to be other stakeholders, other legislators who have different opinions. But I think Duke will always be part of the process. And I think that's a good thing.
CLARE:
I mean, from Duke Energy standpoint, it does make a lot of sense when you think about it. Randy, is the first to acknowledge that Duke has been here for so why shouldn't they walk in your best interest to guide legislation and regulations? And you cannot resign? Maybe there is an argument to be made, seem that they do control our energy system, why shouldn't they be involved in energy policy?
RISHAB:
Yeah, for sure Clare, I agree.
Yeah, I definitely think there's an argument to be made about the pluralistic process and how we need all people to have opinions, especially the companies that are a part of the solution. When we're talking about public policy, we're all in agreement that Duke has a role in public policy, at least in our current moment, and it's a pretty large role. However, the downside, according to many environmental groups, is that they block progress that would reduce emissions. For example, they've been crucial in funding NC State Legislature campaigns through PACs. They've resisted bills such as the energy freedom bill that would have allowed for third party solar companies in North Carolina. subsidiaries of Duke such as Piedmont, have worked to stymie efforts to pass energy efficiency measures for new homes, because it claims that they might lose customers. All in all, it seems like Duke status is monopoly grants and the power to do what they want, resists change when it doesn't benefit their business model and block signal If we can't climate forward policies and practices, yeah, these are just examples. And it's much more complicated than me saying, Duke has done a bad job. But when you have all that power to influence public policy, do you think that consumers and the public should be worried about large companies like Duke pushing for their policy interests, rather than community groups and environmental groups that are advocating for their interests?
RANDY:
You know, I think you have to look kind of, you know, let's look at the results. So in North Carolina, our electric rates are like 10%, below the national average, maybe 15%, below the national average, and we're looking out for customers, we want to, we're proud of that, because when you have lower electric rates, you can bring in new industry and new jobs, and that helps everyone. So you know, obviously, we're gonna have, you know, input and what we think are energy policies to be, and we support a number of candidates, we may support a lot of candidates who agree with us on some issues and not other issues. And, and that's, that's probably true with every company out there. So I don't think you know, I, you know, I couldn't believe that Duke Energy has that much power. I mean, we are, obviously a large company in the state, there are other large companies or other stakeholders who have input as well, there's a lot of legislators would have different opinions. But you know, I think we always want to be part of the process, because if you're not part of the process, you may get some of the end result that you're not very happy with and can't work, and doesn't really help the customers in North Carolina.
CLARE:
Randy’s perspective really highlights how many competing demands, Duke Energy has to try and balance customers and businesses want low prices, and environmental groups want just sustainable energy. For example, environmental groups, such as the sunrise movement, the Environmental Working Group, and other activist organizations are advocating for Duke to change their practices. How can do a walk with these different interest groups? And how can they alleviate some of the polarization between them? Here are Randy's thoughts.
RANDY:
Think, from the Duke Energy standpoint, so a lot of activist groups, you know, they have a certain emission there, there there, either it's clean energy, or it's whatever there happened to be, I think, from Duke, we have to look at the big pitch, you know, it's like, we understand what people want clean energy. But there's another segment, let's say, business owners who say, Hey, we want affordable energy, I don't want to pay for a lot of extra stuff, I won't electricity as low as I can get it. So we got to talk about them. You know, we we serve a number of data farms, and they're saying we need it reliable, we can't have a click. I mean, you know, if you're a Facebook data center, you want to be as reliable as possible. So we got to listen to all those stakeholders and do what we think is best to satisfy each one. Will we always satisfy each one? Probably not. I mean, everyone has that we're not doing quite enough in those areas. But I think we've talked about it, we talked with stakeholders, we just had a very successful fall in in North Carolina on electric transportation on E V's and Evie charging. And that was by a bot 30 different stakeholders who got together to kind of craft out what our filing was. So you know, hopefully, we can expand electric vehicle and electric vehicle charging in the state. So I think when you talk about what Duke Energy does in the future, I don't think we're ever going to do it in a vacuum. There are always going to be stakeholders involved. But we do have to remember, there's a lot of different stakeholders who have different opinions on what needs to be done. And how can we satisfy all that and still keep, you know, rates below the national average and keep industry coming to North Carolina.
CLARE:
One of the biggest issues that activist groups have been fighting Duke Energy over is a situation regarding Dukes coal ash pits, in fact, Jillian was one of the activists involved in this walk. And so we wanted to ask her a little bit more about the situation. Well, I know that you have been involved in some work in the past with pushing Duke Energy to clean up some of their toxic ash pits. And I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about that. You did?
JILLIAN:
Yeah, definitely. So this was an effort that started far beyond me and was really led by community members who lives in coal ash pit communities. So Duke Energy, whenever you whenever you have a coal plant, it actually needs to be cooled down by water. So Duke Energy coal plants are on water sources, lakes and rivers. And it pulls in the water to go through the facility to be able to cool down the plant to take the coal to produce energy. So after you have this piece of coal that goes through the machine, what you have leftover is the waste the the parts of the coal that actually don't need to be used for energy. And basically Duke Energy throws it over its shoulder and puts it in the backyard of another person and wipes their hands of it over time, meaning decades and decades, these little pieces of coal that aren't used to create energy develop these massive Lake size pits. Like they're huge, and they seep into the soil because they're unlined. If you imagine digging a hole and filling it with water over time, right, that water will seep across your lawn. That's exactly what's happening. But on a massive scale, and with huge, huge contaminants. So for a number of years, almost 10 years, maybe people have been advocating for Duke Energy to clean up their toxic coal ash pits across the state. And recently, a couple years ago, on April 1, we were fortunate enough to win a lawsuit, and to get the Utilities Commission and to get the department environmental quality to approve that Duke Energy has to pay to clean up all of their coal ash pits, and across the state at all the different coal plant sites and sites that now have gas plants, but were coal plants, they have to be excavated. So it's a huge win for communities. I mean, if you can imagine, so many communities have been living with poisoned water, because this toxic waste just seeps into people's wall waters. Because all of the coal plants are in rural communities where a lot of people are are on well water. And we're also able to advocate for them to get either put on county water system. So actually getting clean water sources, or to get a filtration system put on their well water. But that wasn't enough, we needed to make sure that the coal ash pits were also excavated, so that this toxic waste that's sitting in people's backyards, doesn't further contaminate their soil and their air quality. So when like this exists, it can happen. It takes a lot of people in, like I said positions of power, and Secretary Regan of the department, environmental quality was on our side. And I know that he fought for us along the way, he definitely got help from us along the way also, because the reality is like we're not going to compromise on people's lives. And we're thankful that he was able to make this decision and keep Duke Energy accountable.
RISHAB;
There's a lot to take in. Just to back up Jillian, really quickly, Duke agreed after a long fight to pay $1.1 billion in cleanup over 80 million tons of coal ash, that's 80 million tons. That's not a good look for Duke. And that certainly brings up questions of environmental justice and the role of corporations polluting largely low income, rural bipoc communities. An important part of this is that Duke is trying to pay for some of this $1 billion plus cleanup with ratepayer money, citing rate increases on energy bills as necessary steps to continue their operations. However, it wouldn't be fair to Duke unless we heard their side of the story. Here's what Randy had to say.
RANDY:
I think anytime you retire a power plant, we have a decommissioning plan in place. And in some of these cases, we would we were going to bury the coal ash in place around those plants. And that was the most cost effective way. So they came in and said, No, we really want you to ask abate excavator and take it somewhere else. So it's like, okay, we can do that. But there there comes a cost with that. And I think, you know, the customers have to pay that cost. You know, no one really likes it. I mean, this is a plant that's run, well, 30 years in the past 30 years, but you know, there's still a cost to take all that ash and move it somewhere else. So customers do have to pay for that. We're trying to keep it as cost effective as possible. We know some people don't like it. But you know, if we won't those that ash taken somewhere else not buried in this in the sites where they are, you know, there's a cost that comes with that. And, you know, I think customers are going to bear that. I mean, I think the company will bear some of that cost as well.
CLARE:
Pretty simple answer wouldn’t you say Rishab? After listening to Randy, it seems as if Duke Energy views this as more as an economic issue, and that's the customers as the customers need to pick up the bill. While Julian Riley seems to view it more as a public health issue, and representative of a larger issue of the amount of power that Duke Energy has.
RISHAB:
I love the work that Julian and other advocates are doing around coal ash, and other issues of environmental justice. It's amazing to think about Duke energy's huge and well it seems like we're powerless at times. Julian's example just goes to show that if you go to meetings, if you see the problem and you take action, then you have a chance at redefining what it means to be a person that's affected by a corporation, instead be the person that affects the corporation itself. Whether you hate Duke Energy, or you love them, it's important to note that you're not powerless in this fight for a cleaner future, and you have a role to play, your voice matters. Julian nucleons.
JILLIAN:
We have a say in how they operate. I mean, you know, there's a lot of things that Duke Energy can do without the same from the public, because they are a public company. But there's a lot of things that we, if we had people in place that wanted to really hold Duke Energy accountable, we can make some genetic changes, we could deny their integrated resource plan, we can make them come back to the drawing board, you know, we could not allow an individual rate increase, right, like they can't charge customers more for the fact that we're paying for failing our plans, there's a lot of things that I think we could change. And as a state two, I mean, we do offer some rebates for individuals who buy energy efficient car, who buy hybrid car, those types of things. But there's a lot of things we could do as a state also, that could potentially even reward Duke Energy for, you know, changing their gas plants and transitioning their coal plants into solar. I mean, I don't like to give corporations money, I think that's goes against my moral beliefs. But if that's what it takes to get Duke Energy to stop poisoning people, and literally killing people and killing these communities, you know, poisoning their water source and poisoning their soil and poisoning their, their air that they breathe. If we have to figure out some type of rebate or tax incentive to get them to switch over to renewable energies, then we need to make that decision. But we don't have leadership right now in the state that wants to make that happen.
CLARE;
For myself, I know that many times these issues can seem really big and overwhelming at times. And as an activist and someone who deals with these issues every day. I wanted to close out by asking you if you had any advice for young people who are looking to get involved in these issues.
JILLIAN:
I think something that we kind of touched on that's important to remember is there are people that are working on these issues, any social justice issue, environmentalism, you know, anti racist work, gender work, immigrant rights work, there are people that are working on these issues every day. And it's so easy to feel overwhelmed and not know where to start with these massive issues. But I think we need to reframe how we think about how to get involved, because it's not where do I start? It's where do I step in? Right? Where can I lend a hand. And in Durham, there are people actively engage across the spectrum on social justice issues. And they always need volunteers, they always need people to help out, they always need people just to be a body and come to a meeting and go to a city council meeting or go to a public utilities meeting. And so there are definitely ways to get involved. And sometimes, we can get so wrapped up with how big the issue is that it holds us from getting involved. But we have to remember, every single day there are people working on these issues, and they need help.
CLARE:
So with all these interviews, what do you think was some of the main takeaways?
RISHAB:
Well there's a lot to get through. But first, I think we should all know that Duke Energy is a large corporation. Because of that they have a lot of power. Through this power, I want to say that they've caused a lot of harm to many people through their practices. You can see it in the way that they fund politicians and influence policy that the way they want it, or even how they cause environmental injustice is like all those coal ash problems without repercussions.
CLARE:
However, to be fair to Duke Energy, this isn't to say that they're all evil, or that we can blame them for everything bad in politics. And as Randy notes, we do live in a system in which Duke controls our energy system. So why shouldn't they be part of the decision making process
RISHAB:
to your points? I mean, yeah, no one's ever gonna be 100% happy with any policy that Duke Energy will put out. Duke trying to balance the demands of so many competing interests, all these activists and these consumers. And if we know anything about politics, it's that it's very messy, and very imperfect.
CLARE:
So for those that see Duke Energy as having too much power is the solution. more transparency and their practices? Or is it to reduce the funding that you can give to politicians, or maybe even to break up their monopoly status on energy? Unfortunately, we don't know. However, we hope that if you picked up anything, it's that energy policy is very complicated, and that large energy companies like Duke Energy, do have the power to make or break our climate ambitions.
KATHERINE:
Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of Operation Climate. Make sure to subscribe on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, and anywhere else that you find your podcasts. In order to stay updated about future episodes, visit our website at bit.ly/operationclimatepodcast for a full transcript of this episode. And for more information and links that you can explore to learn more about this topic that we covered today. Follow us on our socials, we are at operation climate on Instagram. And lastly, we want to hear from you. So write a review on Apple podcasts that would help us so much, and send us your feedback and your messages through our website. Email us, you can dm us on Instagram, you can fill out our feedback form which is on our website. And if you're a student listening to this podcast, head to our website to fill out our students stories form to get the chance to have your story and voice featured on a future episode of operation climate. Thanks so much and we hope you join us next time. See ya.
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